Leading Through Change with CliftonStrengths® & Vision Crafting — A Conversation with John Hildebrand S5E08

If you’ve set big goals for the year but they already feel like a heavy obligation... or if you’re a leader trying to fix team problems but only finding more frustration... this episode is for you.

Today, I sat down with organizational change strategist John Hildebrand to explore why traditional goal setting often fails without a "magnetic vision." We discuss the science behind why goals can become "negative emotional attractors" when they aren't connected to a larger purpose, and how to shift your brain into a state that sustains long-term growth.

John shares his personal journey from a status-driven definition of success to one of deep self-discovery. We unpack the difference between "fixing" and "visioneering," the hidden power of Empathy in leadership, and the specific questions you need to ask to bypass your inner critic.

You’ll learn:

✓ The "Magnetic Vision" Secret: Why setting goals without an inspiring 10-year vision is a recipe for burnout and failure. 

✓ Vision Crafting vs. Problem Solving: How to use the "Positive Opposite" approach to focus on what you want to see, rather than obsessing over what’s wrong. 

✓ The "Lottery Question": A powerful exercise to silence your practical brain ($500 million tax-free!) and discover what truly lights you up. 

✓ Empathy as a Hard Skill: Why this talent is often misunderstood and how it serves as a direct line to building trust in teams. 

✓ Living the Questions: Wisdom from poet Rainer Maria Rilke on how to be patient with uncertainty and "live your way" into the answers.

Mentioned in this episode:

• The Science of Change Book by Richard Boyatzis:
   https://www.amazon.com/s?k=science+of+change+boyatzis&adgrpid=1

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Checked all the boxes of success but still feel like something’s missing? My new book, Discovering Your Calling, is a guide for ambitious women ready to stop drifting and build a life of true fulfillment and joy. Your calling is waiting.

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Transcript

[00:00:02:20 - 00:00:07:13]
Speaker 2
 All right.

[00:00:07:13 - 00:01:09:19]
Speaker 1
 Well, welcome to the Discovering Your Calling podcast. I am your host, Sheri Mitre, and I am excited to have our guest on today. He is another strengths coach who we just really met, got to know each other recently, and I'll save that for when we get into the conversation, but just a little bit about John Hildebrand. Did I say it right? John is an organizational change strategist, coach, and facilitator based in Kansas City, Missouri. He draws upon his background in adult education, cross-cultural learning, and positive organization development to create transformative leadership experiences for individuals, teams, and organizations. In his practice, he helps leaders understand that while change can be hard, if you have the right approach and tools, it doesn't have to be painful. I love that, and we're going to go further into that last part in this conversation. But John, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:10:22 - 00:01:23:11]
Speaker 2
 Thank you. It's so fun to be here. As you said, we've met recently and I've enjoyed our conversations, and I'm happy to be here and to share a bit of my experience and my perspective with your listeners. So thanks for the invitation.

[00:01:23:11 - 00:02:01:23]
Speaker 1
 Absolutely, absolutely. That's kind of for the listeners how this came to be. John was co-hosting a workshop for other strengths coaches around appreciative inquiry. Am I saying that right? Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yes. It was fascinating. I was like, "I want to talk more." So we got on a conversation and the conversation was wonderful. I'm like, "Okay, we need to do this on a podcast. I wish I had just hit record on that conversation because there was so much insight in there and I'm sure today is going to be just as good, if not better." So.

[00:02:01:23 - 00:02:07:11]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. I'm looking forward to a redux of our conversation and where we go today.

[00:02:07:11 - 00:02:18:13]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. So before we get into what you do today, tell us how you got here. What's your, I always like to call it your true calling story. How did you get to what you're doing today?

[00:02:18:13 - 00:02:25:02]
Speaker 2
 Well, the name of your podcast, Discover Your Calling is just so appropriate for my life story.

[00:02:27:12 - 00:02:30:16]
Speaker 2
 Starting early, I'm a middle kid.

[00:02:32:08 - 00:02:39:12]
Speaker 2
 So I have two siblings and grew up in a family in the American Midwest in the 90s.

[00:02:40:16 - 00:02:52:00]
Speaker 2
 My story really starts there. If you know my strengths, I lead with empathy, adaptability, connectedness. A really kind of classic middle kid strength.

[00:02:53:16 - 00:03:06:11]
Speaker 2
 And I would say that I was maybe with a familiar playbook that many of you all know for life and success, I was kind of given this path to success that was very externally focused.

[00:03:07:20 - 00:03:56:02]
Speaker 2
 And then what I realized in my teens and 20s is that that life path wasn't really working for me. And I went on a journey of self-discovery that was a lot of my 20s and early 30s. And throughout that journey that was quite challenging at times, I really learned about sort of how to do self-discovery, how to lead myself by going inward and learning more about myself, more about my unique strengths, which for much of my life I felt like were weaknesses because they were getting in my way. And so my colleagues emerged from that self-discovery. And again, that period of self-discovery really was the better part of a decade, a decade and a half and continues now.

[00:03:57:14 - 00:04:08:19]
Speaker 2
 And so that path leading up to where I am today, when people see what I do today, they often say, "Oh my gosh, it's so cool what you do. I wish I could do what you do." And I say, "You can.

[00:04:10:08 - 00:04:20:20]
Speaker 2
 I don't know if it's the right path for you. It emerged from many years of inquiry about myself, many years of struggle and many years of doubt.

[00:04:22:00 - 00:05:00:18]
Speaker 2
 And now what I do today is really informed by all of those steps along my journey. You mentioned in the intro, my background in adult education and cross-cultural education, which maybe on the surface seems very different from organization development and coaching, but I draw upon so much of what I learned when I was teaching overseas or when I was teaching and supporting international students here on campuses in the US. So I would say that the journey's been a long and winding one and it's really been a path of discovery. And when I look back, I can see it's all led me to the place I am today and really informed the way that I approach work with my clients.

[00:05:00:18 - 00:05:20:11]
Speaker 1
 Hmm. I love that. And I want to dive a little bit more into that because I feel like a lot, so many of the people listening to the podcast are where you were or in the middle where you were. And even starting where you said a lot of your original career path was external.

[00:05:21:14 - 00:05:24:14]
Speaker 1
 What do you mean by that? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:05:24:14 - 00:05:25:22]
Speaker 2
 Sure. Yeah.

[00:05:27:05 - 00:05:59:15]
Speaker 2
 The definition of success that I was shown or the path to success I was shown from an early age was really more about status and more about making sure that I did well in school so that I could go to the right college so that I could get a good job. And good job really meant in medicine, law, engineering, right? Essentially three professions. And this isn't just, you know, I'm not pointing my finger at my parents or teachers. It was sort of a collective

[00:06:00:19 - 00:06:03:22]
Speaker 2
 definition of success and a pathway to success.

[00:06:05:05 - 00:06:10:21]
Speaker 2
 So there was not a real emphasis on self-discovery.

[00:06:12:00 - 00:07:09:04]
Speaker 2
 And I didn't have the tools or the practices that allowed me to really examine what I loved or what I was passionate about or what I was, I mean, I followed what I was curious about, but that external pressure from society, from leaders, from adults around me, really pushed against any of my internal knowing. And it was strong enough to say, okay, I should be doing these things, right? And really what that did for me is it led me to a few points where I felt cracks in that, in that, the life plan that I had been handed. And I felt that tension between what I think was my internal, my deeper self and my deeper knowing about maybe where my life could be headed and where it wanted to go and the pressure that I felt for where it should be going.

[00:07:10:09 - 00:07:18:12]
Speaker 2
 And so that tension really is what led me to a lot of my self-discovery work. And if listeners are in that place, it's not an easy place.

[00:07:19:15 - 00:07:22:20]
Speaker 2
 I know it well, the confusion,

[00:07:24:00 - 00:07:29:00]
Speaker 2
 the, you know, like I said, the tension, the discomfort, the not knowing.

[00:07:30:02 - 00:08:01:00]
Speaker 2
 And what I always remember hearing too is people saying eventually you will know, like you're in the forest right now and you can't see where you are, but you're actually closer than you might think that you are to getting through this. And that was true. So if there are listeners that are in that place right now, I know where you are and I can be another, maybe one of the voices that say, just keep going and keep trusting yourself and what is coming to you internally.

[00:08:01:00 - 00:08:25:20]
Speaker 1
 I love that, John. Who was the voice for you? Like who, how did you transition from looking at what the world and the external things telling you this is, this is the path to success. This is the career field you need to follow. This is what, you know, what you should be doing all the shoulds. Who or what was it for you that like, whoa, wait a minute, let's, let's go internal instead.

[00:08:25:20 - 00:08:36:11]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. What a great question. Two names popped into my head just now and they're authors. So they came through books for me.

[00:08:37:16 - 00:08:54:17]
Speaker 2
 One is Reiner Maria Rilke. He's an Austrian poet that wrote series of letters that has been published. It's called letters to a young poet. And I found that book, actually a friend gave it to me. I was in a really challenging time in my life and she said, I think you should read this. It's really helped me.

[00:08:56:06 - 00:08:58:06]
Speaker 2
 And it's a really beautiful anthology.

[00:08:59:07 - 00:09:26:23]
Speaker 2
 Like I said, it's a series of correspondences really with a young man. This is back in maybe the 1920s who was not sure what to do with his life. So it's, it's Rilke's responses to him. So that's, that's one name that popped into my head. The other is, is Eckert Tolle. The power, he wrote The Power of Now and that book came to me in a time when I was really struggling to be present. Present felt very painful for me.

[00:09:28:02 - 00:09:34:21]
Speaker 2
 And I read that and it opened up another sort of area of self discovery.

[00:09:36:01 - 00:09:59:03]
Speaker 2
 So, so really I found it through books and then that led me onto the path of going to therapy, of coaching, of taking the CliftonStrengths Assessment and learning about my inherent talents. And I got really excited about self-discovery. It was still difficult because I was finding a lot of those painful parts that

[00:10:00:06 - 00:10:17:02]
Speaker 2
 we don't shine the light on or I hadn't shined the light on yet. Seeing into those dark corners was, was difficult. And there was something that was really driving me to do that, to continue the self-discovery, but Rilke and Tolle were the two names when you asked that question that came to mind.

[00:10:17:02 - 00:10:21:07]
Speaker 1
 I love that. Yeah. I mean, books are powerful. We know that.

[00:10:22:20 - 00:10:25:00]
Speaker 1
 Especially if, where's Lerner for you and your...

[00:10:25:00 - 00:10:57:20]
Speaker 2
 Lerner is just outside of my top 10. Okay. The last time I took it. I do think that if I were to retake it, as maybe you do as a, as a fellow strengths coach who's been working with the framework for a while, I've sort of read read adjusted where I think they are. And I think Lerner's, I think Lerner's bumped its way up a little bit for me in the past few years. If you saw my bookshelf, if you saw my, my ordering history of books, I just... Input is very high for me. So I read like seven books at a time.

[00:10:57:20 - 00:10:58:15]
Speaker 1
 Wow. Yep.

[00:10:58:15 - 00:11:16:03]
Speaker 2
 Just bits and pieces of different books. I like collecting information. So my books, I'm looking over here, my bookshelf's over here and it's, it's quite eclectic and it's always a bit messy because I'm pulling off different books from different areas of study in different fields.

[00:11:17:21 - 00:11:26:06]
Speaker 1
 And that's something for the listener. If we start sounding like we're talking a foreign language, we're talking about the Clifton Strings talent themes here.

[00:11:27:06 - 00:11:56:09]
Speaker 1
 And it's interesting. And we're going to go a little deeper in that in a minute, but it's interesting hearing how... So input, I don't know where it is. It's not in my top 10, but Lerner's, I think nine for me. And it's so interesting because I do the same thing with books. I'll read something, get what I need out of it, and then put it aside and start another one. And I usually do have three or four books going at a time. And if I don't have one in the queue, I get very anxious. So it's like, what if I'm reading next?

[00:11:56:09 - 00:12:39:07]
Speaker 2
 Yeah. Yeah. When I was doing my Clifton Strings certification course, there was an activity where we had to describe one of our strengths and how it shows up to the group. And I was assigned input and I took a photo of my nightstand and brought it to the training because I literally had seven books on my nightstand that somewhere open to different pages. And my wife gets onto me, it's a bit messy sometimes. So I need to clean up my nightstand occasionally, but that's just the way my brain works. And I think there's a... I have a real desire for collecting information from different parts of life.

[00:12:39:07 - 00:13:01:18]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. And that's like, as a learner shows up like that for me. So let's stay on strengths a minute. So your top five are empathy, input, ideation, connectedness, and adaptability. So when was it that you were introduced? I know you're in the middle of the self discovery process and then when were you and how were you introduced to Clifton Strings?

[00:13:02:23 - 00:13:06:00]
Speaker 2
 It was probably 2012,

[00:13:07:01 - 00:13:13:20]
Speaker 2
 2011 or 2012. And I had an ex-girlfriend that told me about the Clif... At the time it was called Strengths Finder.

[00:13:15:10 - 00:13:59:19]
Speaker 2
 And I thought, "Wow, that sounds really interesting." She said, "You should take this." And I took the assessment and those were the results I got. And I thought, "What is this? Empathy and connectedness?" And I was like, "These are things that I feel like have really just... First of all, I'm not sure what connectedness means. What do you mean this is a strength?" And empathy I'd known to be something that was problematic for me. It really caused me a lot of strife, a lot of challenge, a lot of heartache. So when I got the results, initially I wasn't very excited. I was excited about ideation. I thought that was cool and I was pretty neutral about adaptability. I was like, "Okay, I could see how that could be good." So it was brought to me not in a professional context, it was in a personal context.

[00:13:59:19 - 00:14:04:13]
Speaker 1
 And I have to ask, was the ex like, "Dude, you gotta take this."

[00:14:04:13 - 00:14:05:09]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, pretty much.

[00:14:05:09 - 00:14:07:14]
Speaker 1
 Or was it like, "Hey, I think you'd really enjoy this."

[00:14:07:14 - 00:14:09:18]
Speaker 2
 It was more like the first one.

[00:14:10:22 - 00:14:23:17]
Speaker 2
 So I do have to offer some thanks to her for a bit of a wakeup call to me to be looking at myself. So it's another person that's really supported my self-discovery journey.

[00:14:24:17 - 00:14:46:14]
Speaker 2
 And like I said, I was mostly neutral to negative about my results initially, but it piqued my curiosity enough and I got the StrengthsFinder 2.0 book. That's actually how I got the code as I bought the book. And they did some reading and saw that there was probably some more learning to do about myself. And now,

[00:14:47:15 - 00:14:51:09]
Speaker 2
 flash forward, I love all of my top five strengths.

[00:14:52:09 - 00:14:53:08]
Speaker 2
 Truly, I can say that.

[00:14:54:12 - 00:14:54:17]
Speaker 1
 Yeah.

[00:14:55:18 - 00:15:04:20]
Speaker 1
 And what made... Well, I'll let you answer either way. What made you fall in love with them or what is it you love about the top five?

[00:15:04:20 - 00:15:06:16]
Speaker 2
 I'll answer both.

[00:15:07:17 - 00:15:26:16]
Speaker 2
 What had me fallen in love with my strengths is the 12 or 13 year process of observing and learning more about the way in which talent themes,

[00:15:27:18 - 00:15:34:13]
Speaker 2
 because their talents and the results, when you get the results, talent themes, which are the results are neutral.

[00:15:35:21 - 00:15:40:05]
Speaker 2
 And it's whether they help us or whether they hinder us, whether they're strengths or weaknesses.

[00:15:42:02 - 00:15:59:05]
Speaker 2
 So I think my process really is one in which I wouldn't say there was a turning point where all of a sudden I said, "I love these," but there was a relationship that I built with those parts of me throughout the years.

[00:16:00:07 - 00:16:15:08]
Speaker 2
 And then throughout that relationship or throughout the years in which I was observing, I started to learn when they were helping me and when they were not helping me. And I got guidance from coaches. I got guidance from colleagues.

[00:16:16:12 - 00:16:34:06]
Speaker 2
 Feedback about when they saw them getting in my way and when they saw them hindering me. And so that was... I really developed this love for my strengths. I think the last one to fall into that place was connectedness. And I have to say that,

[00:16:35:13 - 00:16:39:22]
Speaker 2
 I think you're supposed to say, just like with your children, you don't have a favorite child.

[00:16:41:19 - 00:17:15:07]
Speaker 2
 I would say connectedness is probably my favorite of my talents, of my strengths now. And it's the way I see it coming up for me and serving me is two ways. Really, one is when I'm facilitating in a room. There's almost like a sense of what's happening in the space and what might need to emerge in the facilitation space. And often it's very different from what I'm planning on, which this is also, you can hear my adaptability probably.

[00:17:17:02 - 00:17:59:09]
Speaker 2
 And the other way it does that is through networking. So I find that often I'll meet someone and I just have a sense that they might connect me with someone else. And so I trust them and I meet with this person they say I should connect with. And then before you know it, I'm on a podcast talking to, having a wonderful conversation. So anyway, that's kind of in depth sort of strengths talk there. But your second question was, what do I love about my strengths? So my empathy, my connectedness, my adaptability, these are relationship building strengths. And I just see them serving me in both in my work with clients directly, in the process of building my business,

[00:18:00:11 - 00:18:27:09]
Speaker 2
 and in my personal life. I just really lean into empathy. When I'm working with people, I naturally sense what they're feeling, I can relate to what they're feeling. And I think people feel comfortable knowing that about me. So I know that about myself and trust that. And adaptability, I'm pretty easy going most of the time. My wife might disagree, there's a few times I get a little stubborn, right?

[00:18:28:09 - 00:18:29:01]
Speaker 2
 As we all do.

[00:18:30:02 - 00:18:41:02]
Speaker 2
 And connectedness, I've spoken about that. And then input that I mentioned, I am an interdisciplinary thinker, I like to collect information from seemingly,

[00:18:42:05 - 00:18:46:18]
Speaker 2
 maybe unrelated fields. And I often find that that helps me in my work.

[00:18:47:18 - 00:19:10:10]
Speaker 2
 Sometimes I bring in different metaphors or different studies from different areas of knowledge that really connect with my clients. And then ideation is something, just being a creative thinker and thinking outside of the box really energizes me and allows me to do some interesting stuff that keeps me engaged and keeps me doing new and innovative things.

[00:19:11:10 - 00:19:26:16]
Speaker 1
 And I could see those talent themes when we had our longer conversation previously, because I think it was your input and ideation that like, "Oh, we got to get on a podcast." Was those coming through in that conversation.

[00:19:27:22 - 00:20:29:22]
Speaker 1
 And if somebody is listening, and again, how we're talking now sounds like a foreign language, Clifton Strengths, also known as StrengthsFinder, as John said, tells you when you take the assessment, how you naturally think, feel, and behave. And you can go back and find other podcasts I've done that explain more on Clifton Strengths in depth. But if you're finding, discovering you're calling for the first time and you're like, "What are they even talking about?" It's Gallup StrengthsFinder, Clifton Strengths Assessment. And again, it tells you how you naturally think, feel, and behave. So those are John's themes on that. I am kind of curious and then we'll move, we'll kind of switch directions here, but empathy... So empathy is low for me, so it's not. But it seems like when I talk to other entrepreneurs or leaders and they have high empathy, they struggle with that because empathy... Now, it's more so today, I think, is it Renee Brown that kind of brought empathy more in the light of leadership?

[00:20:31:03 - 00:20:51:19]
Speaker 1
 But for the longest time, empathy was not like, "Oh, that's the strength you need to be a great leader or to build a great business." And even my own husband, who was at the time when he took the assessment, he was a battalion chief in the fire department. So he was very upset that he did not have command, but he had empathy in his top 10.

[00:20:52:22 - 00:20:57:12]
Speaker 1
 He wanted command and that was low and he had empathy high. Now, once he learned it,

[00:20:58:12 - 00:21:02:00]
Speaker 1
 it took him a while, but he finally learned to lean into it.

[00:21:03:05 - 00:21:04:10]
Speaker 1
 How do you see empathy?

[00:21:05:19 - 00:21:21:04]
Speaker 1
 One, do you see that with the people you work with, that empathy is like, "Oh, I didn't want empathy." And then how do you see them once they understand it better? How do you see it serving them so well in their career? And I know that's kind of a loaded question, but...

[00:21:21:04 - 00:21:40:14]
Speaker 2
 No, I think it's a great question. And your example of your husband in the fire department is a really good one because the environment that we're in can tell us a lot about, or can determine a lot about how we initially respond to what our results are. I think there are probably...

[00:21:41:22 - 00:21:44:04]
Speaker 2
 Background is in higher education.

[00:21:45:13 - 00:21:51:01]
Speaker 2
 And I think that that is an industry that is maybe a bit more...

[00:21:52:10 - 00:22:18:11]
Speaker 2
 Would value empathy a little bit more than maybe the first responders that your husband... You mentioned your husband is working with. And the entrepreneurial space, which is a space I work in a lot too, I think there's a similar value toward... I'm doing quotes if you're just listening, hard skills versus soft skills. I don't really buy that distinction.

[00:22:19:22 - 00:22:26:15]
Speaker 2
 But I do think that empathy is often put into this bucket of like, "Okay, that's nice, but how is that valuable?"

[00:22:27:22 - 00:22:40:23]
Speaker 2
 And a lot of the coaching clients that I work with, for whatever reason, not all of them, but a lot of them do have empathy high. Maybe they sense that in me and they feel comfortable working with me.

[00:22:42:00 - 00:22:59:21]
Speaker 2
 And there's often a resistance that you're talking about, and it's often a desire, "Well, I wish I had this, but instead I got stuck with this," which is... You heard my story. That's how I was thinking about it too. Wow, this is number one. Why couldn't I have something cool like strategic or woo?

[00:23:01:12 - 00:23:06:12]
Speaker 2
 Again, that's other CliftonStrengths language, but I think you get the point.

[00:23:07:21 - 00:23:47:12]
Speaker 2
 And what I see is no matter what business you're in, it's a people business. As far as I know, we're leaning into a future where potentially we're going to be working with fewer and fewer people in different industries, but the organizations I know, they're all made up of people. People are involved. And I think that the work that I do with clients who are high in empathy, often it is helping them to understand how their empathy is helping them, whether that be in the work context or in their personal lives or other relationship arenas.

[00:23:48:16 - 00:23:54:22]
Speaker 2
 And a lot of what I'm doing with leaders is helping them to understand where it helps them at work, where it is actually "hard skill,"

[00:23:56:21 - 00:24:50:15]
Speaker 2
 something that it can be hard to quantify, maybe the impact of your empathy on your profit and loss statement or whatever. But with some exploration, I think we can really see how people who are high in empathy, their unique capacity to help people feel understood and feel valued and feel seen. We see all of this data around turnover and around how expensive it is when you lose employees, which is great to have that quantified for us. So I think with a little bit of intentional effort, we can really make that direct connection. And that's part of what I see in my work with clients. And again, because my story mirrors theirs often, I'm able to meet them there and to really help them to go along that journey of seeing the value in their empathy.

[00:24:52:02 - 00:25:17:14]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. I like what you said, being intentional about it too. I think that's for any of our strengths, the more we can understand it, learn about it, and then be intentional where we direct it, how we direct it, how we use it. And even like with my husband, once he leaned into his empathy, he realized that it did make him help his, not peers, but the people that he has, can't think of the right word, but

[00:25:18:19 - 00:25:28:20]
Speaker 1
 not really, I guess under the guys on his shift that he was responsible for, it helped him help them feel seen, as you said.

[00:25:30:01 - 00:25:32:08]
Speaker 1
 And even in circumstances that,

[00:25:33:09 - 00:26:10:06]
Speaker 1
 as he realized it didn't mean the same as sympathy, and he didn't have to sympathize with somebody to empathize with them. And he can help them be seen, even if he didn't agree with what they were saying or doing, they at least felt heard, they felt that somebody cared about them, even if it wasn't, the outcome wasn't maybe exactly how they wanted it. But Tom had a way, once he leaned into that, of making them again, feel seen, feel heard, and really listened to their side of the story, even if the final outcome looked different than what they wanted, which sometimes happened.

[00:26:10:06 - 00:26:45:19]
Speaker 2
 Right. And I love that example. I think, I don't know much of Tom's story, but other than what you've told me, but I think about how valuable trust is in that line of work. And to me, what I often see is people who are high in empathy, sometimes they don't know how inherently trustworthy people think of them as, because they, like you said, there's a natural ability to understand and connect with people with where they are in their emotional experience. And what I often see is that leads to high levels of trust.

[00:26:46:22 - 00:27:15:14]
Speaker 2
 So often what I'm doing is helping them to get feedback, not only from me as a coach, but from others so that they can hear that. And then, you know, when we think of trust, we think of how valuable trust is. It's easier for us to say, okay, I can see how trust is valuable here. As an example, there's other things and there's other ways to build trust too. And I often see that empathy is really often a direct line to trust for others on their team around them.

[00:27:15:14 - 00:27:44:23]
Speaker 1
 Yeah, totally. That's a good, I like that connection there with that. Yeah. So let's switch gears a little bit here, because again, ideation input, I want to give you a chance to hear from you and some of the tools that you do share with your clients. And again, in your bio, you mentioned that you help leaders understand that while change can be hard, if you have the right approach and tools, it doesn't have to be painful.

[00:27:46:01 - 00:28:02:18]
Speaker 1
 What do you mean by the right approach and the right tools? Because change is inevitable and change is coming faster and faster and faster to all of us with AI and just everything changing. So I think we need to get ready for change. So.

[00:28:02:18 - 00:28:17:05]
Speaker 2
 Absolutely. I don't know if listeners know this, there's an Accenture report that came out of 2022 that said the rate of change and disruption that we're experiencing is unprecedented and it's permanent.

[00:28:18:20 - 00:28:25:19]
Speaker 2
 So the future is changed. I think we're all feeling it now. And that's not going to, excuse the pun,

[00:28:26:19 - 00:28:47:07]
Speaker 2
 to change anytime soon, right? That's going to continue indefinitely. So the right tools and the right approach, what I mean by that is we have a lot of tools and methodologies around change that are built on some fundamental assumptions that I think we need to challenge.

[00:28:48:17 - 00:29:24:15]
Speaker 2
 And that often looks like, this is where CliftonStrengths comes in as well, is organizations often have been built and they're structured as though they're kind of mechanistic, like they're a machine. And we have pieces in a machine and our departments and our people, we fit into this machine and when a part doesn't work, we try to fix it or we remove it or we look at where's the problem, can we diagnose the problem and can we fix the problem, right? That's sort of a traditional way of looking at change.

[00:29:26:00 - 00:29:46:01]
Speaker 2
 There's a lot of interesting research that supports a different kind of paradigm for an organization where it's a complex adaptive system. Think of like an ecosystem and there's all the relationships that form the organization that were more than just a cobbling together of parts.

[00:29:47:16 - 00:30:05:22]
Speaker 2
 And when we think about an organization that way, we also consider all the humanness in the organization, right? We all have history, we have emotions, we have biases, we have strong relationships, there's trust that's involved, right? There's a lot of complexity in organizations.

[00:30:06:23 - 00:30:20:12]
Speaker 2
 And when we see organizations as collections of humans in that way, then there are different ways we can approach change that consider the humanness of the people that make up the organization.

[00:30:21:15 - 00:30:35:14]
Speaker 2
 And what I mean by that is when we focus on problem solving in change, and this is again, this is where CliftonStrengths is kind of a similar approach, right?

[00:30:37:00 - 00:30:49:06]
Speaker 2
 When we focus on problem solving in an organization, people orient around the problem. We ask questions about the problem, we learn more about the problem. People emotionally connect with the problem.

[00:30:50:07 - 00:31:35:23]
Speaker 2
 We tend to close off. Our nervous systems get activated, our sympathetic nervous system, so we see less clearly. We're less collaborative because we identify with the problem and we feel what it's like to feel the problem, right? And we feel all the emotions associated with the problem. So I'm going kind of in depth here, but what I'm suggesting with the right tools and the right approach is understanding that and saying, okay, to create and support change, can we orient around the positive opposite of the problem? And can we ask questions about what we want to see? And what are the examples of where what we want to see already exists in the organization?

[00:31:37:02 - 00:32:26:06]
Speaker 2
 So I'll give a kind of a classic example is when we're talking about an organization that has high turnover, employee turnover. A lot of people are leaving. A kind of traditional change approach would say, how do we learn more about why people are leaving? And the kind of approach that I'm talking about and that I work with clients is, okay, a lot of people are leaving, but some people are staying. Why are those people staying? What is leading those people to stay? And what can we learn about the conditions that support those factors that allow them to stay, that encourage them to stay? And can we do more of that? And when we ask those kinds of questions, we learn more about the solution that already exists. And then people become more collaborative, they become more creative. We create positive emotional contagions within the organization.

[00:32:27:19 - 00:32:31:12]
Speaker 2
 And then people start to think, oh, okay, that's right. That happened to me.

[00:32:32:16 - 00:33:18:00]
Speaker 2
 There was a leader that supported us in that initiative, in that activity. So that's a way in which when I work with clients, really what I'm doing is orienting them around what they want to see, which can be really hard when we're in an age of disruption. And disruption is threatening to people. It can be scary. So there are systems and there are frameworks around this where you can really bring people to that space. And I think it's all the more important now, as we are, like I said, navigating this constant change and uncertainty, to have a process that really allows people to get to that place where we can be collaborative, connective, and look at what we want to see as a result of the changes that we're experiencing.

[00:33:19:03 - 00:33:38:22]
Speaker 1
 I like that. So I'm going to really simplify this down a piece of what you said. Is instead of concentrating on what we don't want more of, people leaving, it's to shift the focus and concentrate on what we already have of people staying.

[00:33:40:03 - 00:33:45:10]
Speaker 1
 And how do we get more of that versus, like, why are they leaving? Which tends to be...

[00:33:46:11 - 00:34:00:00]
Speaker 1
 And how could that work for an individual? Because I think my... And I know we both like mindset. That's everything we're talking about really the other thing comes from the background to the mindset and the tools to get to that positive mindset.

[00:34:01:10 - 00:34:30:15]
Speaker 1
 So if it... I want to bring this back because a lot of times people that are listening, they are in that space of, "Should I be making a career change? Should I not? Should I be leaving here or should I stay in a career?" How does that some of the same... And again, I would call it mindset, but same with the same tools or same with the same thoughts, some of the same thoughts help that individual. How would you guide that person when they're deciding, "Do I leave or do I stay?"

[00:34:30:15 - 00:34:37:23]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, great question. And you said a phrase that stuck out to me, "Shift the focus."

[00:34:39:14 - 00:34:52:01]
Speaker 2
 And that's essentially what it is. And what I would offer to someone is that either in the organizational capacity or in your self authorship, in your life,

[00:34:53:12 - 00:35:03:10]
Speaker 2
 the leadership capacity to shift the focus can be the most important and consequential leadership action you can do.

[00:35:04:17 - 00:35:16:18]
Speaker 2
 And for an individual to shift the focus, when you're grappling with those questions, "Should I stay? Should I go?" I'd always challenge "shoulds" to see where the "shoulds" are coming from.

[00:35:18:03 - 00:35:24:21]
Speaker 2
 And what I would offer is a question which is, "Where might you shift the focus for yourself

[00:35:26:03 - 00:35:49:05]
Speaker 2
 to get clearer about what your path is and maybe what is there to learn?" As I mentioned with the organizational example, when we shift the focus and we ask questions about what is it that I want to see or that we want to see and where does it exist, I think the same question can be offered to an individual.

[00:35:50:12 - 00:36:21:01]
Speaker 2
 So if there's an example is if someone is in a job and they're saying, "I don't know, should I stay here? Should I go? I'm not very happy." Right? Before we get to the answer, I would say, "Is there a way we can shift the focus to what is... What if anything is working right now? Are there parts of your experience right now that are really helping you become more of who you want to be that are allowing you to discover more about your calling?" Right? What do you love? If anything.

[00:36:22:16 - 00:36:58:13]
Speaker 2
 And if we can explore that area a little bit more, there might be some clarity that comes from that about the decision. But I think, again, it's the shift of focus that is not just idealistic. I always tell this to clients too, right? Because I think sometimes we think about... Or I've had experiences where someone has demonstrated toxic positivity to us, right? Where we feel like we're having real challenges, right? And you're meeting me with, "Well, tell me what's right." So it's really important to acknowledge what's hard,

[00:36:59:15 - 00:37:38:19]
Speaker 2
 acknowledge our challenges. And we all have a negativity bias. It's how our brains are wired, right? So either in self leadership or leadership of others, even just the ability to reframe and to bring ourselves or others back to focusing on what is working and what do we want to see, that can be a pretty profound shift. It's not always easy, and that's why there's great tools and great... I'd recommend coaches often are really helpful for us to make that shift. And it's important in most cases to do that exploration and to make that shift for yourself and for others.

[00:37:40:05 - 00:37:44:08]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. Can you repeat the two? What is working and what was the other...

[00:37:44:08 - 00:38:10:05]
Speaker 2
 What is working and what do I want? What do I want to see? Yeah. What do I want more of? And that's a lot of the work I do with clients is in line with the research on positive change, which is we need to create a vision for ourselves that is compelling. I like to call it a magnetic vision that draws us to what we want from our lives. If we're talking about individuals,

[00:38:11:10 - 00:38:15:16]
Speaker 2
 what is your ideal life look like eight to 10 years from now?

[00:38:16:17 - 00:38:36:08]
Speaker 2
 And the purpose of that is to elicit the positive emotional response and open our neuro pathways that allow us to sustain change. And that can be a really hard thing to do when we're under pressure, when we're under stress, when we're bombarded with change. And it's all the more important to really clarify

[00:38:37:16 - 00:38:48:16]
Speaker 2
 what it is that you want. And I think Sherry, you're doing that through the work as well through this podcast and these conversations is helping people to clarify that calling. And that vision is an important piece.

[00:38:48:16 - 00:38:54:05]
Speaker 1
 Yes. And actually, I'm glad you brought that up because that was my next my next thing I wanted to talk about is,

[00:38:55:05 - 00:39:07:00]
Speaker 1
 and I'm not sure this is probably going to be aired at the beginning of January. So people listening to it have probably just set some goals. And I know you're big and so am I, we call it vision crafting instead of like necessary goal setting.

[00:39:08:00 - 00:39:12:19]
Speaker 1
 And you just mentioned some of that. Let's go a little deeper on that.

[00:39:14:07 - 00:39:20:21]
Speaker 1
 What do you mean when you say vision crafting? And why is that so important for sustained

[00:39:22:02 - 00:39:27:12]
Speaker 1
 desired change versus I'm going to have my list of goals for 2026.

[00:39:28:13 - 00:39:28:21]
Speaker 2
 Yes.

[00:39:30:00 - 00:39:33:00]
Speaker 2
 So great timing for this episode.

[00:39:34:22 - 00:40:34:11]
Speaker 2
 And what I think as you're alluding to Sherry's goal setting is something that we're encouraged to do in our society and our organizations. And often I see people doing that at the start of the year. And the research shows that when we set goals that are not connected to a larger, inspiring magnetic vision, our capacity to sustain change is dramatically diminished because goals on their own without a connection to a larger inspiring vision become negative emotional attractors. One of my professors, Richard Boyatsas coined that term and it puts us into a negative emotional state because as we know, sometimes if you think about the example of going to the gym, right, it's January, there might be people saying, I want to get in shape this year, which is great. But if they're setting that goal without a larger sort of inspiring vision, a connection to what life will look like eight to 10 years from now,

[00:40:35:15 - 00:40:58:23]
Speaker 2
 the goal itself takes on a negative emotional tone. And once it does that, we're much less likely to, you know, beginning of February say, Oh yeah, that's right. I told myself I'd go to the gym four times a week without again, that connection of where it's leading me and what is the genuinely inspiring component of the vision that we've created. So when I work with clients,

[00:41:00:00 - 00:42:19:16]
Speaker 2
 I tell them I am a big fan of goal setting. I'm not throwing any shade on goals here. We need to have goals, but those goals need to be directly connected to a vision. And a lot of times and listeners may be in this experience too, they might say, well, I don't have that vision. And so that's where I start with my clients. That's step one is how do we, how do we craft that vision? And there's a process and there's questions we go through a share. I'm sure that you do this with clients too. And we have our ways of eliciting the vision for them. Right. But once we have that vision, then again, we've got this direct line between goals, action steps below those goals, and the larger vision. And the research shows this, and I've seen this with a lot of clients, is that's what sustains us. When we come back to the vision, we have that, I tell clients, like read this in the morning, meditate on it, pray on it if you're a religious person, right? Like if you have a practice. So connect with that regularly and then that emotional energy will feed your pursuit of your goals. And without that, I often see that people, again, don't achieve their goals because they lose that kind of emotional power and source that we have inherent to ourselves.

[00:42:20:19 - 00:42:47:07]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. I'm a huge person. And it is, we do that. That's part of the whole Discovering Your Calling Academy is, and it's step two after we discover your strengths, we go into, as I said, you have to at least kind of know where you're going. It doesn't have to be crystal clear yet, but at least know the general direction you want your life and your work to go, or you could end up in a totally different path. And it is amazing. And I'm looking over here because I'm looking at my vision board,

[00:42:48:08 - 00:42:53:04]
Speaker 1
 how many times I've put something down and if it is that emotional connection,

[00:42:54:10 - 00:43:20:14]
Speaker 1
 how things start to happen. And it's crazy where I live right now was on a vision statement I wrote for myself 10 years ago. You know, our boat that we had was on that same vision statement that I had. It was like this three page vision statement I did one year and I need to redo one. I haven't done one recently. The whole story of where do I want my life in 10 years. And I love the 10 year vision,

[00:43:22:05 - 00:43:27:07]
Speaker 1
 except for pushing 60. So that gets scary in 10 years. So maybe the five year vision.

[00:43:29:00 - 00:43:32:05]
Speaker 1
 You know, when you're 40, 10 years, it's, oh yeah, that's a lifetime.

[00:43:33:07 - 00:43:55:20]
Speaker 1
 A certain age is like, 10 years. Wow. That could be a scary age. But what would be, and you're right, you know, I have the questions, but I'm always curious, like, what's some of your favorite questions to ask somebody when you're helping them kind of, I call it visioneer, their future? Do you have any favorite questions that you love or for yourself when you're doing that?

[00:43:55:20 - 00:44:30:13]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, I do. I tend to mix them up. So I've got a few that I really love that I rely on. I call them the magic questions, right? So when we're vision crafting, it's really important to help people to get through the parts of the brain that are checking for what's realistic or what's likely or what's probable, right? Those are all really important evaluative pieces of our brains. And what I always say is we bring those in later. So like, tell them we value you, but like, we don't need you right now.

[00:44:30:13 - 00:44:30:22]
Speaker 1
 I love that.

[00:44:30:22 - 00:44:46:19]
Speaker 2
 And the way we do that, the way I do that is there's two questions I use. One is the $500 million lottery question, which is like, let's say you won $500 million post-tax and overnight your life completely changed, what would you do?

[00:44:47:21 - 00:44:48:08]
Speaker 2
 And the,

[00:44:49:10 - 00:44:59:17]
Speaker 2
 what I find is it needs to be like a really extreme amount sometimes to get people beyond the, oh, I would invest and I would, you know, it's sort of the responsible,

[00:45:00:19 - 00:45:01:20]
Speaker 2
 the practical, right?

[00:45:02:23 - 00:46:48:20]
Speaker 2
 Which maybe that's part of it too, but what I'm really getting at is what do you absolutely love? What lights you up? What would excite you to wake up in the morning and say, I get to do this. Well, I don't have to think about all the financial responsibilities. So that's one of them. The other one is the genie visits you in the middle of the night and grants you three wishes, or sometimes I say as many wishes as you want, but you get to wake up in this world that is exactly as you wished it would be with no limitations. What does that look like? And I like to try to make it fun and sometimes a little bit like self-deprecating when I bring, when I ask the question, I'm like, look, humor me here. Okay. This might feel silly. That's okay. Like we want to bring in some silly here. We're bringing in the realist later, but that's really important. And, and the other, the other piece that I find important when we're vision crafting. So those are some questions I ask, but when we're actually crafting the vision to have it be far enough in the future where we're not evaluating what is, again, we're circumventing the evaluative part. So whether it's five years or 10 years, right? It doesn't really matter as long as we're not engaging in the, well, by next year, I'm not able to be here. So sometimes I'll hear clients doing that and I'll have to be really attentive to that and say, okay, like let's, let's, but let's put that aside and let's really imagine what's possible because that standing alone will benefit the other parts of the change process where we are doing the evaluation, where we're getting clear about what is, what are some steps? We're putting some structure to this, but the vision needs to be able to stand alone as a, as a positive emotional attractor for you through your process.

[00:46:48:20 - 00:46:56:11]
Speaker 1
 I love those. Your questions are way more fun than mine. I'm, my big one go to is the, if you knew you couldn't fail,

[00:46:57:12 - 00:47:05:22]
Speaker 1
 what would you love to be, do, have? But yours makes it a little more fun and exciting to win the lottery or the genie. Well,

[00:47:07:06 - 00:47:21:15]
Speaker 2
 and I think I actually, I love that question and I think about like, that's like a superpower. So maybe even like, I just, this is, this is my ideation, right? But I'm like, oh, if I, if I was granted the superpower to never be able to fail,

[00:47:22:16 - 00:47:39:04]
Speaker 2
 right? Like, what would that look like? I don't know. I think it's a, I think it's a wonderful question. And I think that would really, I can imagine really lands with, with clients in a way that the genie or the lottery question might not. So I think it's good to have a lot of these questions, right? Because different things resonate with, with different clients.

[00:47:39:04 - 00:48:39:08]
Speaker 1
 Right. And I have found this is, you know, has been really interesting to me over the last three to four years because futuristic's number one for me. So of course, engineering is like my thing. Like I love to do that. But I have found that if somebody is, if futuristic, which again, for their own listeners, futuristic is another one of those Clifton Strings talent themes, if it is low for them, this exercise is really hard. It is really hard to do. So I think it's great to have different questions in the toolbox to pull from and different ways to frame the exercise of creating a vision board or a vision statement, or just thinking about your five year tenure down the road. But from a practical standpoint, it's been very interesting. Like I said, especially if it's in their bottom five, it's like, I got to totally reframe the question to help them be able to do that. I don't know if you've ran into that at all.

[00:48:39:08 - 00:49:02:11]
Speaker 2
 Well, I was going to say it sounds like your self-awareness around your futuristic and is really helpful so that you're not assuming that people are in the same kind of visioning space that you are. Right. Which I think is such a valuable piece of coaches knowing their Clifton Strengths to know where they might naturally go, where others might not go.

[00:49:03:12 - 00:49:13:17]
Speaker 2
 I do see that. I see that there are, especially with, I'm thinking about other talent themes here, so again, forgive the language, but the deliberative or the analytical,

[00:49:15:00 - 00:49:25:06]
Speaker 2
 both those talent themes, it can be harder. So I think as a coach, what I'm thinking about is how can I bring someone there? How can I hear what they're saying?

[00:49:26:11 - 00:49:37:01]
Speaker 2
 And this is my adaptability, saying, how do I adapt? What are some other, and I heard you say this, other questions I might ask, or other activities we might do. Do they need some time?

[00:49:38:12 - 00:49:45:20]
Speaker 2
 Are we doing this live? And they're just, that's not the way that they think. Do I need to give them some exercises to take and be in quiet and write?

[00:49:46:20 - 00:50:09:10]
Speaker 2
 I think there's ways that people are either naturally inclined to be doing this future ideation imagination space or they're not. So helping people get there, it's still, to me, and the research shows this too, it's essential to us actually creating sustaining change. So finding more ways to bring people there, I think is just such a valuable endeavor for coaches.

[00:50:09:10 - 00:50:51:11]
Speaker 1
 Right. And I know we're running out of time here, but you said the research. And I want to just land on that for a minute because it does sound so woo woo, not woo as in winning others over, but just woo woo. It's one of those mystical things. When the secret came out 20 years or however long ago, that was the big thing. And I talk about the reticular activator system, and then I also say, I don't know how my cell phone works, but I trust that if I pick it up and make a phone call, it's going to work. I don't know how the light switch works, but I trust if I flip the light, it's going to work.

[00:50:52:18 - 00:51:11:01]
Speaker 1
 But I know you study those things more than I, like that's my brief of how it works. I would love to hear what research do you, if you could have something you can pull out of your pocket now, John, I'm putting you on the spot that shows that this does work because it does.

[00:51:11:01 - 00:53:12:05]
Speaker 2
 I also don't know how my light switch works really. Electricity is continuous to baffle me. And you're right. I mean, I think those examples are really good. And there's a really incredible body of research that has been done and is being supported now. I'll point listeners to, I mentioned his name earlier. Richard Boyatsis is a faculty member at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, which is where I did my master's degree studies. And he has a whole pool of research he's been doing for the better part of 40 years on the science of change. So they're doing a lot of these neuro mapping research activities where they're actually looking at FMRI maps of the brain with positive emotional attractor and negative emotional attractor questions. So there's a coaching research lab that he's involved with and a number of other researchers are involved with that is demonstrating that the importance of vision, the importance of asking these magical questions. So it's, I think as you were alluding to, sometimes we think of these things as kind of new agey or the manifestation sort of, there's some negative connotations, I think, for people who are more analytical and more science-based. And I'm happy to report that a lot of these scientific research studies are demonstrating the real applied value of this approach. So I would point listeners, if you're interested in that, to look at Richard Boyatsis' work on the science of change. There's a lot of, he's got a book actually called the science of change that was published this year, last year. So I would point listeners there, if you're interested in more sources of the research or more studies, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. I'm happy to share a lot of those links and a lot of the other areas of complimentary research that's happening in this field.

[00:53:12:05 - 00:53:31:06]
Speaker 1
 Yeah. And on that note, John, where if somebody is curious to learn more about what you do or just have a conversation, because again, John has high input. He does have a lot of great information, a lot of great studies that he's done from his own education and reading all those books.

[00:53:32:12 - 00:53:35:02]
Speaker 1
 Where can they find you? Where can they connect with you?

[00:53:35:02 - 00:54:25:12]
Speaker 2
 Two places. First, I'll say I'm always happy to connect and be a resource to anyone listening to share the resources. People with input, we've collected all this for a reason and the reason is to share it. So please don't hesitate to reach out either on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. You can find me just by searching John Hildebrand or at my website, johnhildebrand.com. And my email address is john at johnhildebrand.com. So you should see my spelling of my name. So find me there. Don't hesitate to reach out. If I can be helpful, please let me know if you're interested in working together too or want to explore that. I offer free discovery calls and really the purpose there is to give you some value whether we decide to work together or not. So I love connecting with people and seeing how I might help. So don't hesitate to reach out.

[00:54:25:12 - 00:54:41:21]
Speaker 1
 Yeah, thank you. And definitely follow John on LinkedIn because he does share some really cool information over there. And I know you already mentioned this before, but you gave me earlier a favorite quote from that letters to a young poet.

[00:54:43:00 - 00:54:47:00]
Speaker 1
 Do you want to share that again? I do have it in front of me if you need me to share it. But do you...

[00:54:47:00 - 00:55:02:11]
Speaker 2
 I would love for you to read it because every time I try to quote this, I mess it up. It's quite long. But if you wouldn't mind reading it, Sherry, because I think the way that he writes, he's a poet. So it's really beautifully written.

[00:55:03:15 - 00:55:06:08]
Speaker 1
 And say the author's name again, Rainer.

[00:55:06:08 - 00:55:11:08]
Speaker 2
 Rainer Maria Rilke. R-I-L-K-E is his last name.

[00:55:11:08 - 00:55:48:00]
Speaker 1
 Okay. So it says, "Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything, live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer." There's a lot there.

[00:55:48:00 - 00:55:56:13]
Speaker 2
 Thank you. There's a lot there. The part that always resonated with me and still does to this day is living the questions themselves.

[00:55:58:07 - 00:56:26:22]
Speaker 2
 And I think on the calling journey, at least in my journey, I often yearn for the answer. And this was a reminder to me that I needed more time with the question. And I'd live my way into the answer. And it's happened that way. And now, as I still live with questions, I have more and more confidence in being able to just live with the questions and not be so desperate for the answer and trust that the answer is coming.

[00:56:28:00 - 00:56:33:10]
Speaker 2
 So I offer that in hopes that that might help someone listening. Because it's helped me a lot.

[00:56:33:10 - 00:56:55:14]
Speaker 1
 Yes. And I think that's so valuable in a world where, again, I call it the microwave society and AI at our fingertips. And if we have to wait more than 30 seconds for an answer, we get frustrated. It is so hard to wait for the answers to all the questions we have, whether it be trying to discover our calling,

[00:56:56:20 - 00:57:06:19]
Speaker 1
 what are we having for dinner, even simplistic questions like that to what do we want 10 years from now? It is so hard, but to be able to just sit

[00:57:07:22 - 00:57:21:18]
Speaker 1
 with the question. And I love the live the questions now. Like what does that even look like for you? So I think that's a powerful... I'll put that in the show notes because I think it's one to really read and sit with.

[00:57:22:19 - 00:57:56:13]
Speaker 1
 And as I was reading that too, perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer. And I think two things there, it goes back into the visionary, that distant day into the answer. But I'm reading a book by Mark Batterson as a pastor, and it's gradually, then suddenly is the title of the book. And I couldn't help but think about that because it's so fitting there that that's how kind of life works. It seems like it's taking so long, so long, so long, and then it's like, "Oh,

[00:57:57:16 - 00:57:58:15]
Speaker 1
 wow, that happened."

[00:58:00:00 - 00:58:03:15]
Speaker 1
 And sometimes we see everybody else is suddenly and not the gradually.

[00:58:05:01 - 00:58:24:15]
Speaker 2
 Yeah, and to be able to disconnect from the expectation it's going to happen suddenly, to allow it to happen gradually. And then I think there's a paradox in which then it happens faster that way. Life is full of paradox, right? I love the title of that book, though. It's directly in line with what Rilke is saying.

[00:58:24:15 - 00:58:57:22]
Speaker 1
 Well, John, as expected, I love the conversation. And there's always just like, "Oh, I could spend an hour talking about different subject matters in there." And I think for anybody listening today, my takeaway would be pick your favorite questions to sit with and answer. And maybe it's the genie question. Maybe it's the, if you won the mega lottery tick, or maybe it's some of the questions John mentioned earlier that he asked himself in that journey,

[00:58:58:22 - 00:59:05:06]
Speaker 1
 or maybe it's taking the Clifton Strengths, but those would be the takeaways I would say to sit with and go ponder.

[00:59:06:07 - 00:59:09:12]
Speaker 1
 Anything else that you would add or what would you say for somebody listening?

[00:59:10:14 - 00:59:13:12]
Speaker 1
 What would you hope that they got out of today's conversation?

[00:59:13:12 - 00:59:17:19]
Speaker 2
 I love your takeaway. The questions we ask are fateful.

[00:59:19:04 - 00:59:20:22]
Speaker 2
 So if you can ask yourself,

[00:59:22:05 - 00:59:45:03]
Speaker 2
 "right" is kind of a loaded term, but different questions. If you can ask yourself generative questions is what we call them in some of the work I do. What are the questions that are going to yield the answers that are going to bring you closer to where you want to be? Ask yourself those questions and sit with them and be patient and trust and it'll come. It always does.

[00:59:45:03 - 00:59:54:19]
Speaker 1
 Yes, love that. All right. Well, thank you, Ian, John, for being a guest on the Discovering Your Calling podcast. I appreciate you and thank you to the listener for being here today for this conversation.

[00:59:54:19 - 00:59:56:05]
Speaker 2
 Thank you.